Darts on itv4 from frenzie land more fans there then in there stadium

VAR involves a great deal of subjective judgement (and that's why it's so bad for football). Horse racing wouldn't take place without the associated gambling. Dressage is the silliest activity to be classed by some as a sport.

The subjective judgment thing is bang on and in most cases it’s a perfect delineation between something that is a sport - ice dancing not a sport for example - the telltale on this is boxing. Used to be the purest sport. Sport of kings. Hit someone til they’re knocked out or can’t fight on. Brilliant. Introduce judges to decide who has boxed the best and the entire sport becomes a cluster dump of bribery and treachery.

… and while I agree that F1 needs strength and fitness, the winner is always going to be the driver with the fastest car, so it’s really an engineering competition

TS- as I say, it’s all arbitrary - I personally would say that anything involving subjective judgement ( ice skating, diving, BMX tricks, skateboarding, half pipe snowboarding etc.) is no more a sport than is ballroom dancing or literary prizes, but I know that others would disagree. Realistically any sport/game involving moving at all (including darts, snooker etc) needs a degree of physical fitness just to be able to keep concentration over a long game.

F1 definitely strength

You need a degree of physical fitness for archery

OI football just mirrors society, unfortunately

Nick W - Yep, good discussion subject.

Nick - There is an elite, there has been an elite ever since the Premier League arrived. If you really want to blame the elite try the Premier League. Personally I think it is the fault of clubs in the EFL, willing to make enormous annual losses across the 72 clubs.

Wonder if mr Mayo has delivered his findings on the DT elections yet. Something else to ask on Wednesday

OI - it might be tucked away on TNT, but that does not lessen the damage it perpetuates for the majority of clubs in this country.

If darts is just a “game” then so is archery, shooting, bowls and any else which is primarily about accuracy rather than physical fitness. You can divide the “sports and games” universe in numerous different ways (eg you could say that Formula 1, show jumping etc are not “real sports” because the effort is really being done by a machine or an animal) but any such division is going to be purely arbitrary and a matter of opinion - though of course still fun to argue about.

Trigger - Ditto darts and Snooker, yet Phil Taylor came 2nd in SPOTY in 2010 and Ronnie O'Sullivan was nominated in both 2020 & 2022 (not placed in either). Both are (pub/club) games, not sports, IMHO, but there you go.

I’d like to see the Premier League done using the squash ladder system.

Surprising number of people I know who have paid up for the full suite of footy streaming options.

Chess uses the 'Swiss system' game or sport, albeit slightly differently. Anyway the Champions League isn't for all and is tucked away on TNT Sports in any case.

Chess is a game not a sport

divide by 0 error

Get the Chelsea women in there pronto.

Cheers, Postman. here is the Broncos live link [Link] It's interesting watching a different sport at NPL. Not many there, unless the main stand is packed.

Broncos game live now on YouTube

Most chess tournaments are meaningless then as run on that basis, although of course many people think that anyway.

About half the teams in the Champions League group are Championship level with a few L1 standard teams.

Totally agree NickD - how any leave table can remain relevant under those conditions I do not know